Curse

Bazompora · Oct 24, 2007, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Likelytodie

Ok, so, from what I've seen the best compromise would be to just remove any advantage a title might give completely.

From what I've seen the two sides (pro-titles/anti-titles) are of two distinct opinions.

A.) (Pro-Titles) The titles don't give any real significant advantage to a player, and any advantage given is barely noticeable.
B.) (Anti-Titles) The title benefits are unfair to new players and seasoned players alike who don't focus on title-hunting.

Neither of these opinions seems to be against the removal (and even the "Anti-title" opinion doesn't even seem completely against titles, just gaining any benefit from them). Hence, the solution, remove title benefit, keep titles. Everyone is happy (from what I've gathered, unless I'm missing something very obvious).

Exactly!

Keep titles, remove taxation for not ranking them = everyone can game the way they want, unhindered.

Diva Signet · Oct 24, 2007, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Titles are a main part of Guild Wars, not the only part. If they weren't a main part of the game, then why are we having this discussion, and why are there 23089403984 threads about it?

And as far as skill > grind, titles do nothing to change that. Aside from sunspear rank 7 requirement (which, btw, I think is stupid and should be removed), there are zero parts of the game that require any sort of title whatsoever. PvE skills/consumables/buffs from LB titles are not required for anything, so don't whine about "I can't do this because I don't want to grind." Sounds more like "I don't want to do this mission/quest/whatever because it's too hard because I don't want to grind a title" to me. If you don't have the skill without the title, then there's nothing anyone, even Anet, can do for you. (Except, perhaps, buff Searing Flames, but that's a different story)

The only title that had any sort of merit for the argument was the wisdom/treasure hunter title, and lucky for you, Anet put in the Perfect Salvage kit. And don't give me the "I don't want to spend money on GWEN" bull. I've seen people selling them in all three non-GWEN major cities.

Nadia Roark · Oct 24, 2007, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazompora

Exactly!

Keep titles, remove taxation for not ranking them = everyone can game the way they want, unhindered.

We already can. ANet doesn't balance the game around players having certain titles/benefits bestowed upon them. Titles may grant advantages in some areas, but those are the breaks. I don't really see what all the hooplah is about.

Unfortunately for many, the have-nots are fighting an uphill battle against the rest of us. I hestitate to say this because it just might destroy my credibility, but I would guess most of the people arguing for no title benefits or (even more radically) no titles at all probably do not have titles. Or at least, they don't have many, or the ones they have are very low-level. Why else would they be complaining about it? Only those of us that do have them are in a position to speak authoritatively about their effects. Only we have compared being title-less to being titled; and I'm here to say its no big deal most of the time. There are exceptions I suppose (Ursan, Pain Inverter) but they're hardly the norm and I don't see a reason to completely overhaul the title system on account of them.

If a title effect or skill is overpowered, people should address that issue specifically. Don't come up with this nonsense that titles or their rewards need to be done away with completely.

angryKid · Oct 24, 2007, 03:59 AM // 03:59

As for the GW:EN grinding - the only thing I really farmed was Norn points (just to discover that Highlander Woad looks terrible on my dervish). I beat the game and did 9 (which is 50%) dungeons in normal mode and I haven't even bothered with a lot of quests. That gave me 3 ranks 5 and one rank 6. Oh, what a terrible grind that was...

Bazompora · Oct 24, 2007, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

We already can.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, so I'll rephrase:
Keep titles, remove taxation for not ranking them = everyone can game the way they want, UNHINDERED.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

I would guess most of the people arguing for no title benefits or (even more radically) no titles at all probably do not have titles. Or at least, they don't have many, or the ones they have are very low-level. Why else would they be complaining about it? Only those of us that do have them are in a position to speak authoritatively about their effects. Only we have compared being title-less to being titled; and I'm here to say its no big deal most of the time. There are exceptions I suppose (Ursan, Pain Inverter) but they're hardly the norm and I don't see a reason to completely overhaul the title system on account of them.

Of course ... you have ranked your titles to your satisfaction and that puts you in a better position ... to belittle the taxation/discrimination issue.
And, of course, I still have low ranks in those titles that are taxing me, even though I grinded to the extents of my endurance ... but that also means I have experienced and still am experiencing taxation first hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

Don't come up with this nonsense that titles or their rewards need to be done away with completely.

You call it all nonsense, because the taxation afflicting other players attributes you some kind of feeling of superiority ... and you wouldn't want that bubble to burst.

Despite how you try to misrepresent the situation, I am far more moderate and considerate in my claim: despite how I'd personally love to see titles disappear, I plead for them to stay, but have us not disadvantaged for not grinding them.

angryKid · Oct 24, 2007, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Can somebody close this thread? We're running circles here.

Nadia Roark · Oct 24, 2007, 04:40 AM // 04:40

You're going to have to go over this "taxation" thing with me. I'm not sure I follow exactly. Do you really think you're that disadvantaged for not having max LB, SS etc... ? O.o

Also, no, I haven't ranked my titles to my satisfaction. I've got a long way to go and why not? I enjoy the game.

And whats this about being "more moderate in your claim?" I've encountered the Haves vs. Have-Nots argument in ethics and politics and I'll tell you what: it doesn't impress me there either. If people like the game enough to continue playing it between campaigns (e.g. those of us who don't think of it as just another computer game), they should get something for spending so much of their time here.

You're not a victim, and this martyr complex of yours is getting on my nerves just a bit. The fact that someone has more of $OBJECT than you is not a carte blanche to remove or reduce $OBJECT (whether that object be money or MMO character titles or.. I dunno, bananas) just because you can't stand material disparity. It's the way of the world. Whether GW should be an impeccable, super-sanitized version of this world is its own debate, and I'm sure you can guess which side I'd take--and why not? I've worked for it--the fact that you haven't/can't/won't isnt my problem and I shouldn't have to lose the benefits I've worked for.

arcanemacabre · Oct 24, 2007, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

I've worked for it--the fact that you haven't/can't/won't isnt my problem and I shouldn't have to lose the benefits I've worked for.

It seems you may have lost sight that this is a game. You know, entertainment. This isn't real life, nor should it mirror real life in all aspects.

I, for one, completely agree with you and your views when it comes to real life. I have no problem working for what I have - I understand and accept it as reality. I also understand that it needs to work that way, due to the problem of scarcity - we all simply can't have everything we want or need.

However, this is a game. It is entirely possible to give everyone what they need, in this case maximum effectiveness, while rewarding people with what they want for overcoming obstacles. Grind/Work for aesthetics/luxuries is fine. Most of us were fine with FoW armor, high-end weapons, etc. None of those things have advantages, period. Titles are also fine. They provide a goal for some, time and money sink for others, and the end result was a nice little aesthetic reward. Well, no longer.

Nadia Roark · Oct 24, 2007, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

It seems you may have lost sight that this is a game. You know, entertainment. This isn't real life, nor should it mirror real life in all aspects.

Okay, but the game is also a business and ANet needs to keep people interested in GW long enough to make it profitable. Titles are a way to keep us busy in GW1, since otherwise we'd run through and get bored of endgame content and probably forget about GW1 by the time the sequel went to market. We might still buy it but I think ANet wants to keep us playing for some reason. God only knows what that reason is!

Back before Factions came out, I expected and intended for this to happen, even in my case. The inclusion of titles did exactly what it was built to do--it added additional incentive to a PvE environment I had already been through several times. I'm sorry if it hasn't had the same effect on some of you, but when you put yourself in ANet's shoes, titles and rewards are probably one of the best of very few feasible possibilities for them to keep us busy in GW1 without programming an overly large amount of new GW1 material. It's a way of hiding PvE rewards in a place that's supposed to take us a lot of time to get to (time they're spending on GW2). Grumble now, earn later, enjoy! Most of the titles that are being mentioned here can be done simply by killing creatures in a certain area--whether you have the patience to farm or not, you'll probably be killing stuff wherever you go--just nab the bounties when you're in the pertinent areas and do your thing.

It might be a game, but it (and everything else) is still predicated on real-life principles. Whether it mirrors them or not, there is no escape from the merciless grip of reality!

Bazompora · Oct 24, 2007, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

You're going to have to go over this "taxation" thing with me. I'm not sure I follow exactly. Do you really think you're that disadvantaged for not having max LB, SS etc... ? O.o

Since you're unwilling to read through the thread, I'll stick to simply copy/pasting my explanation. The title tracks involved are Treasure Hunter, Wisdom, Luck, Luxon, Kurzick and Lightbringer ... and actually ... Sunspear too:

Title tracks such as Treasure Hunter, Wisdom, Lucky, Lightbringer, Luxon, Kurzick, etc. have been imposed on the playerbase: the 3 firstnamed reduce the chance to break salvageables (after the devs lowered succes rate by 25%, in order to grind your way back to the former level) and lockpicks, while the latter make themselves indispensible for farmers trying to stay within the economical top.

If one decides not to indulge in grinding titles, he's down to 50% succesfull salvage, thus 1 chance on 2 to destroy valuable items and absolutely abominable circumstances for extracting costy bonuses from costy items; maxing the Treasure Hunter title and the Wisdom title gives one 92% succesfull salvage, thus only 1 chance on 12.5 to destroy valuable items! And you call dividing failure by 6 (and a quarter) a tad more?

IT DOES affect gameplay: those who refuse to grind these titles earn less and have to farm more for their "income" (money to pay in-game expenses).
Playing the game means more than only playing missions and quests.
While these titles do not stop me completely (100% gain reduction), they do slow me down (up to 42% and 39% gain reduction, salvage and lockpicks respectively).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

If people like the game enough to continue playing it between campaigns (e.g. those of us who don't think of it as just another computer game), they should get something for spending so much of their time here.

I've been with GW1 from the start (I even attended the Open Alpha and Beta before release). Now ... what did I get for my time spent? 25% salvage succes rate reduction!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

You're not a victim, and this martyr complex of yours is getting on my nerves just a bit.

Oh ... I never considered myself a martyr ...
I'm an angry taxpayer!

Red Sonya · Oct 24, 2007, 05:41 AM // 05:41

What Bozo keeps overlooking with all his whinning is that you don't NEED much money in this game. All you require are a maxed weapon, a maxed offhand (if you use an offhand) and ONE set of maxed armor. Nothing more is required to be COMPETITIVE as the next person who has millions of plat, every piece of armor and/or weapon in the game etc etc. So there is no taxation as he keeps trying to say is there. You gain enough coins to buy a maxed set of armor and you will and can collect enough collectables to get a maxed out weapon of your choice and an offhand.

The rest of everything else is merely cosmetics and then falls into a players "WANTS" not NEEDS. Wants are not part of the competitive nature of the game. Wants are not things Anet promised in the skill>time statement either. Wants are nothing more than vanity and last I checked the definition of Want is not the same as the definition of NEED.

It's also been proven that you really don't NEED max gear to be competitive. What you NEED most are your skills and to be skilled in using them. That's all you really NEED from the game.

So, Bozo's rants are just that. Jealous rants because he either doesn't have the time to invest in these unneeded titles or he's just too lazy to or he wants everything on a silver platter just for his sake. I notice hardly anyone else is agreeing with him and he's pretty much preaching to deaf ears as far as most are concerned and Anet as well. It's been this way too long to be radically changed now anyways.

And also the really really main point is he's failing to convince anyone of any importance that what he thinks is best for the game is best for the game. He almost writes like some political science student (a very poor one I might add) who's doing this for practice or some research or subject matter for said class.

nugzta · Oct 24, 2007, 06:43 AM // 06:43

The keyword is Competitive. This implies that skill > time for you to be compete equally as other players only applicable in competitive environment, namely PvP. Just face it, the mobs in PvE are always the same its only matter of AI exploitation so there is no skill involved to begin with.

Back in the Prophecies days, Guild Wars was truly competitive game where PvP at its prime time. We had Guild Wars World Championships with lots of money prizes. So skill > time was apparent back then. But surprisingly PvE gained more popularity and PvP started to decline. So PvE is Guild Wars new direction, PvP is left to dust without proper skill balance, no more championship, etc. The game has changed from PvP oriented to PvE oriented. This is why more grinding content is added to the game because PvE is all about character development, time and dedication.

So to sum it up, forget about skill > time as it doesnt exist in PvE to begin with. And the grind content will stay in Guild Wars if PvE is the direction of this game.

theblackmage · Oct 24, 2007, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazompora

You do realise we're talking a game, not some pseudo-game second life! The purpose of a game is not to make us work, but to maximalise our relaxation.
You're being most deceptive here, cutting my phrases in two and taking my words out of context.

Hey! That's what I've been pleeding for all the time!

However, you were the one who had a problem with that (see above).

Since you seem to misunderstand my position, perhaps I should clarify:

I see the current system in the current game working fine as a simple concept of economics: If the marginal benefits (in this case title benefits) of doing something outweigh the marginal costs (in this case title grinding) of that, then people (in this case grinders) will do it. If the marginal costs outweigh the marginal benefits, then people (in this case non-grinders) will not do it. BTW, the costs/benefits are subjective and thus change from person to person even on the same activity.

Since it's not broken, so don't fix it.

However, if you want there to be no marginal benefit for grinding in future GW products, by all means, state that and not try to pick apart the current system.

Although, come to think of it, if there aren't title benefits, what IS the incentive for being a hardcore player? Prettier weapons/armor? But isn't that working (grinding) to get the more expensive stuff? Sure, no change in gameplay mechanics because of it, but it still is a benefit. By that logic, we can't have elite weapons or armor, either. In fact, we can't even have expensive runes or anything of the sort, because you have to "work" to get them. And really, is it that big of a deal if there are slight benefits for a title that was tailored specifically for people who want a little more meaning to their grind?

Also, about the complaints about wisdom and treasure hunter giving an economic advantage? Oh please. You do realize that getting those titles, even if it didn't give any bonuses, would also confer an economic advantage, due to more loot to sell. So if you want the benefits of treasure hunter(economic advantage) so bad, why don't you get a start by opening chests(for loot) when you pass by them (ie not chest farming)? You get the loot, AND you get points toward the title, no grinding neccesary. If there are more points required for the next level than you could possibly ever get while doing your strict non-grind playing? Then you have run out of non-grind content in the game, and thus it is a non-issue.

So my view as a whole: Current system works in GW and, in theory (as I haven't played it), could work in GW2, assuming not too much is changed. If you think the current system is broken, ask for a change in the next game so that people moving to GW2 can see it as part of the change to a new game, not as ANet giving in to people whining about it. I'm not supporting you in this position, although I am supporting you letting us know exactly what you want to debate.

Also:

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

It seems you may have lost sight that this is a game. You know, entertainment.

You know, just because it is work does NOT mean that it cannot be fun as well.

arcanemacabre · Oct 24, 2007, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by theblackmage

Also: You know, just because it is work does NOT mean that it cannot be fun as well.

You seem to know a little about economics. My answer to this is: Law of diminishing marginal utility. It is fun the first time, less fun the second time, and even less fun the third time. I would say the average player would no longer find it fun after 5-6 times, and then is actually just work. This shouldn't happen in a game.

Nadia Roark · Oct 24, 2007, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazompora

Since you're unwilling to read through the thread, I'll stick to simply copy/pasting my explanation.

Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazompora

The title tracks involved are Treasure Hunter, Wisdom, Luck, Luxon, Kurzick and Lightbringer ... and actually ... Sunspear too:

Title tracks such as Treasure Hunter, Wisdom, Lucky, Lightbringer, Luxon, Kurzick, etc. have been imposed on the playerbase: the 3 firstnamed reduce the chance to break salvageables (after the devs lowered succes rate by 25%, in order to grind your way back to the former level) and lockpicks, while the latter make themselves indispensible for farmers trying to stay within the economical top.

If one decides not to indulge in grinding titles, he's down to 50% succesfull salvage, thus 1 chance on 2 to destroy valuable items and absolutely abominable circumstances for extracting costy bonuses from costy items; maxing the Treasure Hunter title and the Wisdom title gives one 92% succesfull salvage, thus only 1 chance on 12.5 to destroy valuable items! And you call dividing failure by 6 (and a quarter) a tad more?

I think the rates for success on salvaging lockpicks is absurdly low considering the cost of picks. That isn't a reason to remove title benefits per se.

Quote:

IT DOES affect gameplay: those who refuse to grind these titles earn less and have to farm more for their "income" (money to pay in-game expenses). Playing the game means more than only playing missions and quests.While these titles do not stop me completely (100% gain reduction), they do slow me down (up to 42% and 39% gain reduction, salvage and lockpicks respectively).

The fact that affects gameplay is presupposed by us arguing over title benefits in the first place. But again, I agree with your point about lockpicks and it'd be nice if they could change it if they plan on charging 1.5k for them.

Quote:

I've been with GW1 from the start (I even attended the Open Alpha and Beta before release). Now ... what did I get for my time spent? 25% salvage succes rate reduction!

Oh ... I never considered myself a martyr ...
I'm an angry taxpayer!

No you're not, you're a player spending time on GW because you like some aspect of it. Complete and unequivocal satisfaction with a game (or, generally, anything else in life) is not something most of us have the luxury to familiarize ourselves with. That said, you've done almost nothing to rebut the main points about title rewards and why they're good for the game; instead you've chosen to deploy a string of ad hominems (although admittedly I asked for it when I declared my opposition to be as self interested as I was) without telling me why I'm wrong or why title rewards don't add depth or interest to the game. You're focusing simply on the fact that I must be wrong (because I'm not saying what you're saying) rather than why. I have explained at length why I believe I'm right, and if you honestly expect any kind of credibility, you'd have the cajones to argue against my points rather than my character.

I'm surprised that anyone is upset over a feature ANet implimented to help us. They're trying to be nice here and you're just killing the fun completely with this trash about "well I don't want to do it so no one should get a benefit from it," and all manner of lame 'whine > play' mentality. Get over it already.

~ Dan ~ · Oct 24, 2007, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazompora

I allready did! If you have the patience to keep up with grinding, you can also read my previous posts in this thread!

You have not showed why people who want titles to stay, are wrong.

Quote:

So, because someone likes to grind for it, he deserves advantages over those that don't?

Yes. So you think you can sit doing f*ck all all day and get rewards for it?

Quote:

Now you can arrest me for name-calling, because, you, sir, are a charlatan.[LIST][*]I want as many gamers as possible having fun, without discrimination.

GG on trying to twist it. Just tell me, if "taxation" is removed because your crying about it, how are the various title holders happy? You make out as if the people who are happy to grind titles are a very very small minority.

Just answer me this ONE question, will ya?

Taxation is removed. Now, would you be motivated to grind hours upon weeks upon months for a few letters under your character name that most people won't even hover over?

arcanemacabre · Oct 24, 2007, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

Taxation is removed. Now, would you be motivated to grind hours upon weeks upon months for a few letters under your character name that most people won't even hover over?

Umm... hell no. That's kinda the point. But guess what - there are plenty of people that would still be motivated. Remember back when titles were initiated? They had no effects at all, and there were still lots of people maxxing this and maxxing that, purely to show off them letters. Stupid? Sure, IMO. But who am I to ruin their fun.

The titles are their own reward, just like that pretty 15k armor is its own reward, just like that fancy rare-skinned weapon is its own reward. Titles didn't need a secondary reward.

Look, this is how it should be:

1) Leave titles in the game.

2) Remove any effects and linked skills from titles.

3) Everyone is happy (oh, except those who want to work, and work, and work for a mechanical advantage - there are plenty of other games out there for that)

Deal?

SotiCoto · Oct 24, 2007, 10:13 AM // 10:13

My e-p33n is bigger than any of yours'.... So there.

[Subtext: Arguments about titles = FTL.]

Bazompora · Oct 24, 2007, 10:52 AM // 10:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by theblackmage

However, if you want there to be no marginal benefit for grinding in future GW products, by all means, state that and not try to pick apart the current system.

Well, of course I was thinking towards GW2: the thread title indicates that is the final destination of the subject.
(But now that you mentioned ... some people here might have missed that; thank you for putting that under my attention.)
But if titles would make a reappearance in GW2, would chances not be great that the GW1's titles will for a large part be transplanted, along with the present disadvantages/advantages?
If I picked apart the current system, it was against the background of GW2; thus not with the intent of having changes in GW1 itself (although I would like it if titles stop taxing players in GW1 aswell), which would be ... well ... off-topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theblackmage

Although, come to think of it, if there aren't title benefits, what IS the incentive for being a hardcore player?

Well, if you mean "hardcore player" as in "title grinder" ... what about titles themselves? Titles without advantages have not witheld players from achieving them. Also, /rank emotes wouldn't be causing discriminatory advantages, so there'd be no ground for resenting that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theblackmage

And really, is it that big of a deal if there are slight benefits for a title that was tailored specifically for people who want a little more meaning to their grind?

Yes, it would be unacceptable. Meaning shouldn't come from disadvantaging non-grinders, so grinders can have an advantage over them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theblackmage

Also, about the complaints about wisdom and treasure hunter giving an economic advantage? Oh please. You do realize that getting those titles, even if it didn't give any bonuses, would also confer an economic advantage, due to more loot to sell.

That's the whole point isn't it: those who are ranking their titles receive double economic rewards (grind + tax reduction), while those who don't are allready at disadvantage by default (less looting) and receive an additional disadvantage (grind tax) on top of that. How's that fair gameplay?

Quote:

Originally Posted by theblackmage

If there are more points required for the next level than you could possibly ever get while doing your strict non-grind playing? Then you have run out of non-grind content in the game, and thus it is a non-issue.

The points required are way beyound non-grind gameplay; so, how's that then a non-issue?

Quote:

Originally Posted by theblackmage

If you think the current system is broken, ask for a change in the next game so that people moving to GW2 can see it as part of the change to a new game, not as ANet giving in to people whining about it.

See ... I thought I was doing just that. But many (dis)advantage-defenders keep calling those who say the current title system would be wrong for GW2 "whiners". I still have trouble trying to understand how that's even an argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theblackmage

I'm not supporting you in this position, although I am supporting you letting us know exactly what you want to debate.

You made yourself quite clear to me; I'm here to debate what this thread is about:
titles in GW2 = no, yes or something in between?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

You have not showed why people who want titles to stay, are wrong.

Again, you keep misrepresenting the facts: I am not opposing myself to titles, but to the disadvantages that are bestowed on those that don't rank in them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

Yes. So you think you can sit doing f*ck all all day and get rewards for it?

No; have I ever asked for rewards?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

You make out as if the people who are happy to grind titles are a very very small minority.

Where did I make it look like that?
I'm starting to grow tired of my words being twisted and false allegations by ... well ... just you, dan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

Just answer me this ONE question, will ya?

Allright, but if you keep up like above, I might start ignoring you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

Taxation is removed. Now, would you be motivated to grind hours upon weeks upon months for a few letters under your character name that most people won't even hover over?

Dum question, because even with tax reduction I couldn't bring myself such grinding.
But! People allready do; think about the Drunkard, Survivor, Explorer, Unlucky, Sweet Tooth and Vanquisher title tracks: these earn you no disadvantage reductions or extras whatsoever, but the little piece of text under your name, yet it hasn't stopped people from ranking in them. If there's one thing that can be said about these tax-less titles, is that people have wholeheartedly chosen to obtain them.

Cebe · Oct 24, 2007, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazompora

Ho wait! Aren't we a little exagerating there? The one guy calling me an "a---" is hardly a flamefest..

But threads can easily go downhill.

Step away from the handbags, boys and girls, and keep this thread civil please.